PJ Johnstone — Software engineer at Cleo
We spoke to PJ about joining Cleo as their 12th employee, embracing failure, learning by doing and why your non-tech degree shouldn't hold you back from a career in tech.
- Tagged Interview
- Posted 7th September
With the unexpected closure of our original interview location, Origin Coffee, PJ agrees to meet at The Hoxton in Shoreditch, an equally chic location for our interview.
PJ has started their day with a yoga session at BLOK and meetings at Cleo’s office in the heart of Old Street.
PJ is a software developer at Cleo and has been there for close to 4 years. They reflect on what has been a crazy last 18 months for the company. “We closed our Series B raise a month or two before the pandemic hit — we got very lucky. When we left the office we were a team of 40 now we’re a team of 150 — during the pandemic we’ve more than tripled the company, it’s been really exciting.”
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It’s been an incredible period for the fintech on a mission to fight for the world’s financial health — it’s an ambitious mission but one that PJ says emanates throughout the company. “It’s a really big thing for us. We’re building a super-intelligent, AI assistant constantly fighting for our users — we want to go on a journey with our users and be by their side as they grow their financial independence.”
Before joining Cleo PJ worked at an executive search firm, after graduating from Oxford University with a degree in Spanish and Arabic in 2016, an experience that exposed them to the tech industry.
This exposure solidified an interest in tech sparked by PJ’s father who had taught them the very basics of HTML and CSS early on. To facilitate a move into the tech industry PJ joined Makers Academy on their full-stack web development programme which gave them the hard and the soft skills needed to land that first job in tech.
PJ joined Cleo as their 12th employee and entered a learning environment that suited them to the ground. “That was really fun — it was a free environment where you just go and get stuff done.”
PJ notes that while this environment suited them, they appreciate that it’s not for everyone. “It’s a flat structure and that won’t work for everybody. I know a lot of people really value working for a bigger company where there is a clear breakdown of when you’ll be focussing on learning and when you’ll be working.”
For PJ, however, the environment was ideal. “I always wanted to learn by doing. I don’t want to read an abstract theory about how specific parts of databases work — I will learn that when that specific part of a database breaks at Cleo and we have to jump on a Zoom call and solve it together.”
The tech team at Cleo have been influential in making PJ’s transition into tech work. “I’ve been very fortunate; they are incredibly supportive. They would go out of their way to not just show me how things work, but to also be sure I understood it. I only had one week of experience working in Rails (Cleo’s back-end stack) before joining, but they knew that when they hired me — they really look at the individual as a whole.”
The approach at Cleo, to embrace failure and learn from it, is something that PJ speaks candidly about. “I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve broken Cleo! When you make a mistake you feel that pain as a company and don’t make it again. Always back yourself to figure things out and embrace that fear of failure.”
A culture of embracing failure and learning from it takes a committed team and attitude to make it work as PJ points out. “Everyone is so friendly, is always willing to help and while we’re all busy we always make time to help one another and pitch in.”
The comradery that comes from working in this fast-paced environment is clear. “My title is ‘software engineer’ but my job is to help my team — most of the time that will be through writing code because that is my skillset, but it is also pitching in wherever the team needs support.”
On feeling pressure about joining the tech team from a non-tech background, PJ didn’t see it as an issue. “I came in at the bottom ring of the ladder so took the approach of; I’ve got nothing to lose. I knew it was the type of environment I wanted to be in — fast-paced where you can learn by doing.”
I ask PJ what advice they would give to someone from a non-tech background thinking about going into tech. “You’ll develop so much within in tech so don’t let your degree keep you from going into it. My brother studied computer science and yes, he’s incredibly knowledgeable but you learn so much when you work in tech simply by doing it — it’s just a different approach to gaining that information. Instead of reading a book, you’re learning by doing and bumping into bugs that teach you.”
Before heading off for an afternoon of meetings and 1:1s at Cleo HQ, PJ gives a final piece of advice. “Don’t do something because it’s the default — be intentional about what you’re doing and find what works for you.”